Talk:Centurion Pattern Predator
Centurion pattern predator this is the history section of the Centurion that i'm working on in word, tell me if i need to add anything: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like all other Predator variants; the Destructor, Annihilator, and Baal, and the Avenger, the Centurion is based on the Rhino STC. The Centurion pattern has been seen in service in the Argent Centurion's colours scince their creation as a chapter in Mid-M37. The need for this vehicle was truely realised during the Vindicator assault on the ruined city of Typhanos, stronghold of the Traitor Marines during the second war of Telan in M37. The plan was to have the full force assault the main gates, while a squadron of the Argent Vanguard's 9 vindicators went around and attacked from the other side of the city, alas, when the four Argent Vanguard companies finally broke through the gates with only half of their men surviving, The chaos marines were already escaping with all the vindicators and had destroyed the factories needed to create them all over the planet. The STC for this type of Predator has been in Antharo Valkaiser's family for generations and was recovered before the Great Crusade. Instead of giving to the Adeptus Mechanicus, Antharo gifted it to the Argent Centurions on their inception as a fully-fledged Chapter, Taking it to Centuris. The design is now only produced by the Argent Vanguard themselves and by their descendant chapters.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 02:53, December 6, 2009 (UTC) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uh, Bolshack, you know that in a lot of cases, original STCs are the machine as well as the design, right? Anyway, Space Marines have no concept of family beyond the Chapter. And if it was already an STC design, you'd think they might have already tried to produce a Predator with possibly the most powerful battle cannon of all time mounted on it's turret? This is full of inconsistencies. Think act of desparation, not "Oh, I conveniently have this STC that'll save all our lives in my family heirloom vault!" Overwhelming enemy numbers allowed the Vindicators to be overrun, leaving them unable to use their Demolishers on the enemies hitting them from behind, maybe? So the Techmarines started looking for a way to expand the Predator turret to mount a Demolisher Cannon, giving it a 360o arc of fire. //--Run4My Talk 13:56, December 6, 2009 (UTC) 1) i can see where your a slight tad confused, i should have mentioned that the STC was gifted to antharo before he became a space marine. 2) maybe they did try to produce a Predator with possibly the most powerful battle cannon of all time mounted on it's turret, so much knowlage was lost after the dark age of technology. 3)err.... yea...--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 14:50, December 6, 2009 (UTC) I'm not confused. You just didn't give half of your information. And who decided to hand an STC to a space Marine instead of handing it over to the Mechanicum and being a multi-billionaire? And what I meant by the "Why didn't they try it" was why didn't the Argent Vanguard/Centurions try it more recently, i.e. at the start of the war instead of waiting til the last second to whip out their party trick? You concept is still full of holes, almost all of them caused by the fact that you want this to be an already-existing STC. //--Run4My Talk 15:07, December 6, 2009 (UTC) rightttt. 1) They didnt hand a space marine the STC, antharo's family had been on the run from the mechanicus for centuries before antharo had been born, passing the STC from generation to generation, not everyone likes the mechanicum, which i'm sure you know. 2)i would have it created at the begining of the war, but up untill the point when it was created, the chapter had 9 vindiators, and i dont see how they would fit in if the chapter already had vindicators. 3)it mentions over and over again on razorback and whirlwind(i think) that several STCs...actually i'll tell you when i find my codex.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:15, December 6, 2009 (UTC) You're coming up with answers on the fly here, and you're not doing it well. Think the thing through, start to finish, from an objective viewpoint. //--Run4My Talk 15:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC) You mean i'm like Vegas'... how did you put it.. It's not just "Drop the titan on the fly!". That would cause the titan to fall over and blow up.?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:20, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Not exactly. Its more like "Well, you see, it's this way because of this!" "But that doesn't make sense . . ." "Well, it'll make sense because of that thing there" "Why didnt you say that first? And that other bit still doesn't make sense" If I were you, I'd duck out of the already-existing STC thing altogether, say the Techmarines spent the whole war looking into making a more versatile Demolisher-carrying weapon and after some time, it became an accepted modification to the Predator STC, acknowledged by Mars. //--Run4My Talk 15:27, December 6, 2009 (UTC) now you have a slight flaw, if it had been accepted by mars, like the Annihilator and LR crusader, every chapter would have one...--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:28, December 6, 2009 (UTC) EDIT: wouldnt they?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:29, December 6, 2009 (UTC) How is that a flaw? Are you the mean kid who doesn't want to share his toys? It's easy enough to say most other Chapters stuck with "Yeah, we'll just stick with the Vindicator, thank you." Or you could just say it's pending acceptance by Mars. //--Run4My Talk 15:31, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Yes, i am a mean, mean man >:/ makes sense to me.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Just say pending acceptance. //--Run4My Talk 15:37, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:38, December 6, 2009 (UTC) so err, what should i put where??--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 15:50, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Ignore the existing STC concept altogether. It builds far too many inconsistencies into it. Overwhelming enemy numbers and close confines in the city allowed the Vindicators to be overrun and/or flanked, leaving them unable to use their Demolishers on the enemies hitting them from behind, so the Techmarines started looking for a way to expand the Predator turret to mount a Demolisher Cannon, giving it a 360o arc of fire. The Techmarines spent the whole war looking into making a more versatile Demolisher-carrying tank and it's pending acceptance by Mars. //--Run4My Talk 16:08, December 6, 2009 (UTC) what communication device do space marines use?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 16:10, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Standard comms, mounted in their helmets. Techmarines use a Signum, which is linked into the entire detatchment's comms system and allows them to link their bombardments and other aid into unit movements. //--Run4My Talk 16:13, December 6, 2009 (UTC) right then, like this? --Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 16:26, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Like all other Predator variants; the Destructor, Annihilator, and Baal, and the Avenger, the Centurion is based on the Rhino STC. The Centurion pattern has been seen in service in the Argent Centurion's colours scince their creation as a chapter in Mid-M37. The need for this vehicle was truely realised during the Vindicator assault on the ruined city of Typhanos, stronghold of the Traitor Marines during the second war of Telan in M37. The plan was to have the full force assault the main gates, while a squadron of the Argent Vanguard's 9 vindicators went around and attacked from the other side of the city, alas, when the four Argent Vanguard companies finally broke through the gates with only half of their men surviving, The chaos marines were already escaping with all the vindicators and had destroyed the factories needed to create them all over the planet. Over the crews' vox-casters it could be heard that the overwhelming enemy numbers allowed the Vindicators to be overrun, leaving them unable to use their Demolishers on the enemies hitting them from behind. The Techmarines started looking for a way to expand the Predator turret to mount a Demolisher Cannon, giving it a 360o arc of fire. The Techmarines spent the whole war looking into making a more versatile Demolisher-carrying tank, finally perfecting the design and hastily rushing it into service, these 3 proto-type Centurion Predators performed admirably, burying chaos under collapsed building, and utterly destroying the chaotic land raiders with its missile launchers, the true test began, however when the Argent Vanguard's own nine vindicators, corrupted and mutated by the chaos marines, came charging through the city, all of them vere destoryed without remorse. Even as late as the 41st millenium, the design is only produced by the Argent Vanguard and their descendant chapters, while for unknown reasons, it is still pending acceptance by Mars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Big improvement. //--Run4My Talk 16:38, December 6, 2009 (UTC) anything that could improve it? or should we move onto the avenger?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 16:38, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Expand on how Mars reacted to the Centurion and what other Chapters think of it. Say a few use it, a few don't and all. Did Mars take offence? If so, which Chapters came to their defence (the Space Wolves would, they've been in the same boat, the Steel Tigers would too, they're annoyed at Mars about Tempest of Rage)? If not, why? //--Run4My Talk 16:44, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Well i imagine mars would be outraged, my chapter has had a farily good standing with the space wolves(which i should really put in the argent vanguard article too) the Ultramarines might... have to think why they would... erm who would use it... who would use it, salamders? they're pretty "heavy metal" ultramarines? they like a good mix, and antharo could convince them... some-how hmm...--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 16:51, December 6, 2009 (UTC) The Space Marines like their independence. Most of them will close ranks. The Salamanders would stick with the Vanguard because of the whole Craftsman thing. The Space Wolves are firm supporters of the Adeptus Astartes' independence, so they're in. The Steel Tigers have a whole Brotherhood Among Space Marines thing going on, they've got the Vanguard's back. Ask around the site, it could develop inter-Chapter relationships depending on who does and doesn't side with the Vanguard, and who just wants to keep their noses out. //--Run4My Talk 16:56, December 6, 2009 (UTC) right, one thing..."Most of them will close ranks"?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 16:58, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Never heard that? Stand side-by-side against interference/meddling/enemy attack etc. //--Run4My Talk 17:00, December 6, 2009 (UTC) oh right. never heard anyone call it close ranks before.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 17:00, December 6, 2009 (UTC) righty then, what should i write in the "Reaction of the Mechanicum" section?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 17:02, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Make it a sub-section under History. //--Run4My Talk 17:03, December 6, 2009 (UTC) i have, writing it on word before i put it on the webpage--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 17:04, December 6, 2009 (UTC) hello?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 17:19, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Yes, still here. You wanted a response to that? Okay then. Go through the Canon Chapters' and Mars' reactions, post and then ask around the site to see if anyone else's Chapter wants in for any reason or to take whatever side. //--Run4My Talk 17:22, December 6, 2009 (UTC) no, i ment what should i write on the reaction of the mechanicum untill then.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 17:25, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Finish the whole thing, then iron out as many kinks as possible before posting it. Work the Mechanicum's reaction into the Space Marines' counter-reactions. It mostly descends into bickering and screaming about "We're Mars, we own all technology" and "We're the Space Marines, we're beyond your authority". //--Run4My Talk 17:42, December 6, 2009 (UTC) How's this? --Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 18:51, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Reaction of the Mechanicum It was three years after it's creation that the Adeptus Mechanicus realised that the Argent Vanguard had created the Centurion Pattern Predator, word went out and before even the Mechanicus could make a statement, the Space Wolves, the Steel Tigers, and the Salamanders had rushed to the Vanguard's aid You make it sound like they went to war. Re-word it a little. Three years after it's successful baptism of fire, the Machine Cult of Mars discovered the existence of the Centurion Pattern Predator and rushed to investigate the Argent Vanguard. As they attempted to sue the Vanguard for infringing on their purpose in the Imperium, the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Steel Tigers spoke out in defence of their Brother Space Marines. //--Run4My Talk 18:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) i see what you mean, but i imagine it would have come pretty close to starting a war considering the vanguard created the avenger aswell.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:00, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Yes, but yours came quite close to looking like they rushed in and battered the Mechanicus delegation. //--Run4My Talk 19:01, December 6, 2009 (UTC) i can just imagine something similar, here we go:--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:04, December 6, 2009 (UTC) A centurion pattern predator in the Argent Vanguard's colours blasts down the main forge on mars "SUE THAT!" can we continue this on the centurion's talk page?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:05, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Mars' Reaction Carry on. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:14, December 6, 2009 (UTC) right... Three years after it's successful baptism of fire, the Machine Cult of Mars discovered the existence of the Centurion Pattern Predator and rushed to investigate the Argent Vanguard. As they attempted to sue the Vanguard for infringing on their purpose in the Imperium, the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Steel Tigers spoke out in defence of their Brother Space Marines.... what next... do warhammer 40,000 imperial factions use courtrooms?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Would have just been a debate on neutral ground, like a Space Wolf, Steel Tiger or Salamander ship. Well, trial would be more accurate than debate, I suppose. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:25, December 6, 2009 (UTC) and how do they go down?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:26, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :As far as I can gather, the Mechanicum would be saying the Space Marines are infringing on their territory and toying with STCs, and offending Machine Spirits and such, and they shouldn't be doing that because they're not Machine Cultists, and hence don't have the expertise for that stuff. The Space Marines would be fighting the corner of ""Come on lads, it works, the Machine Spirits are fine with it, no STCs were harmed in the making" and so on. It's mostly the Mechanicum kicking up a fuss about someone potentially affecting their monopoly on technical innovation. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC) even if techmarines created it?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:35, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Yup. They tried to nail the Space Wolves for creating the Annihilator. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:42, December 6, 2009 (UTC) so who normally wins these trials when something new is created?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:43, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Dunno. The Space Wolves won theirs, but that's the only definite example I've pulled out other than mentions left, right and centre of how jealously the Mechanicum guard their monopoly on technical knowledge and how aggressively they pursue people who might damage their hold on it. Terrorism, kangaroo courts, kidnapping, murder etc etc. They really are a gang of gearheaded assholes. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:47, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok, do battle barges have thunderhawk hangers? and if so, how big are they?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:49, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :They do, and they can carry about three companies' worth. //--''Run4My Talk'' 19:53, December 6, 2009 (UTC) would it be big enough to house a trial?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 19:54, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :It wouldn't be much of a big "our-world" trial. A small conference between a Magos and a Techmarine from each Chapter, and the Argent Vanguard's Head Techmarine and Master of the Forge, maybe Chapter Master on the bridge of the meeting ship would work out, until the Mechanicum formed a full report and really went at it. Then it'd be moved to a Forge World and carried out more like a trial, I reckon. //--''Run4My Talk'' 20:34, December 6, 2009 (UTC) when you say each chapter, who do you mean?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 20:39, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :The people who want to back up the Mechanicum (likely no one) and the people who want to back up the Vanguard. //--''Run4My Talk'' 20:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC) well, the iron hands might back up the mechanicum, and on my side will be the salamanders, your chapter, space wolves, alough i doubt my successor chapters would be able to participate.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 20:48, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :I could see the Iron Hands staying well away from the dispute. //--''Run4My Talk'' 20:55, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Oh, ok, i have a way it could end, if you want to hear it.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 20:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Go ahead. //--''Run4My Talk'' 20:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) it could end with the Argent Vanguard being allowed to keep the avenger and centurion(cause they were both built in the same war) but not allowed to ask the mechanicum for any new venicles, forcing them to become competely self-sufficient.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:00, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :That's essentially a death sentence for the Chapter's armoured sections. Space Marines just don't have the independent infrastructure to make their own vehicles to keep up demand, and barely maintain their existing ones. It'd be interesting to deal with a Chapter like that, like the Flesh Over Steel drawback from the old Codex. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:04, December 6, 2009 (UTC) then what do you advise the outcome be?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:05, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :I think yours is quite a nifty one, as the Space Marines come to terms with the fact that they'll have to find new ways to fight with less reliance on armour, and an increasing emphasis on the infantry and infantry-weilded anti-tank weapons rather than Tank Warfare. Done right, it could be a great turning point for their story, but if you do it wrong or pull some Deus Ex Machina to save them out of nowhere, it'll just look terrible. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:10, December 6, 2009 (UTC) well chaos marines could sieze andros, the local forge world in my system, kill everyone, and later my chapter takes compete control of the planet, if that works of course.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:13, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :The Mechanicus would want it back. And no one would stop them. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Ok, looks like my chapter's going self sufficient, is there any way they could make vehicles without a fully-fledged forge world?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:19, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :They could make vehicles, but not as many as they used to. If you have the Space Marine Codex with Calgar and the Honour Guard on the front, go to the "Create a Chapter" section and have a gander at the Flesh Over Steel drawback. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:32, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Sorry, i only have the 5th edition SM codex.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:36, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Would it be possible that my chapter had a secret "forge world" created from one of Telan's two moons, i've been wondering what i could do with them for a while.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:37, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Not really, no. You'd kinda need a few more Forge Worlds under your command to be able to build a new one . . . //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:39, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:42, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :It's a giant factory. Not exactly something you can build in secret when other Forge Worlds are the ones making the parts and materials. //--''Run4My Talk'' 21:55, December 6, 2009 (UTC) oh, right, i was thinking of a carved out moon, about....1/8 the size of earth.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:55, December 6, 2009 (UTC) so... i have nothing except the vechiles surviving the 2nd war, spartans(i want to make a page for them) and officers and marines, with weapons and armour factories. and thats it... hmm.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Or... when i save andros from chaos, could i "borrow" some parts and STCs to start my "forge moon" before i hand it back to the mechanicum, that work?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 21:59, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :No, they still wouldn't be able to build the same big Manufactorum. And they could still build some in the Chapter Forge, just nowhere near as many as before, and it'd take a lot longer. Thus, they'd need to rely on them less, because they wouldn't be able to sustain the same losses as before. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:01, December 6, 2009 (UTC) I'm kinda glad i made my spartans now, think the need for them could be a result of the trial?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:05, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Up to you. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:12, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok... so how should i write all this.... lets see, to begin with i've got: Three years after their successful baptism of fire, the Machine Cult of Mars discovered the existence of the Centurion and Avenger Pattern Predators and rushed to investigate the Argent Vanguard. As they attempted to sue the Vanguard for infringing on their purpose in the Imperium, the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Steel Tigers spoke out in defence of their Brother Space Marines. The trial was held inside the Salamanders' battle barge Hammer of Nocturne.... --Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:13, December 6, 2009 (UTC) what should i write next?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :As the Adepts of Mars gathered their case, and the Space Marines gave their testimony, it became clear that the Mechanicus Agents were not going to let the Argent Vanguard off lightly, whether or not they successfully defended the Centurion Pattern. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:25, December 6, 2009 (UTC) sweet, this might turn out as a really good article because of this one sub-section ^^--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:27, December 6, 2009 (UTC) right... the next part should talk about the steel tigers, space wolves, and salamanders... any ideas for them?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:32, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok, got it: "The defending chapters made varing statements about the predators, all boiling down to the point that they would better the Imperium and even defend the Mechanicum, the very ones cursing the Argent Vanguard for thie creation."--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:36, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :That works grand. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:40, December 6, 2009 (UTC) the next sub-sub section should probably be how the chapters "kept their heads" while the adepts went crazy, any ideas for that?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:41, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Not really. There're three hot-headed Chapters and the Vanguard, and smug, methodical Magos. Everyone would be on edge, trying to keep their heads. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:45, December 6, 2009 (UTC) hmm... so why is my chapter the only one that isnt hot-headed?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:48, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :They might not be. But you're dealing with the Space Wolves, the Salamanders, and a Chapter descended from the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Raven Guard. They're hot-heads. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:52, December 6, 2009 (UTC) i honestly thought the salamanders weren't hot heads.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:53, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Depends on the situation actually. Did a little research. Do not mention sacrificing civilians in front of them. //--''Run4My Talk'' 22:56, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok then, what would come after the mechanicum flipping out during the trial?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 22:59, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :They wouldn't flip out. They'd just repeatedly state their base point and how they're "Taking their jobs!" After they reach a decision, they'd likely sentence the Argent Vanguard at the end. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:01, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok... after sentencing do you think the vanguard would give copies of the avenger and centurion STCs to the space wolves, salamanders, and steel tigers for their efforts?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:03, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Up to you. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:05, December 6, 2009 (UTC) right, any ideas for this sentencing sub-sub section?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:06, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :The Mechanicus decreed that for their infringement and meddling, the Argent Vanguard be cast from their light and receive no further aid from Mars or it's Empire. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:13, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Nice one.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:14, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :No problem. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:15, December 6, 2009 (UTC) how could we add the Creation of and need for the spartans?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:16, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :As they realised the Mechanicus decree was a death sentence to their armoured divisions, the Argent Vanguard needed to find a way to compensate for this. Following the lead of the Steel Tigers, they began researching into creating a stronger basic infantryman. They began searching Imperial records for a way to make a better soldier, eventually finding records of the Gland Warriors of Dantis III. With some aid from the Steel Tigers' Apothecarion, they began seeking ways to implant Stimulant Glands into their soldiers, settling on a cocktail of Psychon, 'Slaught and Spur. After several centuries of research and failed attempts, a successful modification to the Argent Vanguard implants to add three Stimm Glands, one for each drug, that the Space Marine could activate at an impulse. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:29, December 6, 2009 (UTC) one thing i should note, got Disconected by the way, is that the "glands" were placed inside the cavities created by a gene-seed mutation. could you re-word it so it includes that while i reconnect a sec?-- 23:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC)(bolshack) :Or just leave them as extra implants and avoid getting into a Gene Seed mutation. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:37, December 6, 2009 (UTC) oh, ok.--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:40, December 6, 2009 (UTC) EDIT: do you think i should create a page for my spartans and all their stages in a chapter?--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:41, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Leave them as a section in the Argent Vanguard page for now. If it's long enough when finished, the content can be moved. //--''Run4My Talk'' 23:57, December 6, 2009 (UTC) ok, its just theres: Spartan, Spartan Sergeant, Spartan Veteran Initate, Spartan Veteran, Spartan Veteran Sergeant, and Acting Captain. (i put the ones i've made actual models for in bold)--Chapter Master Bolshack Wildhammer 23:59, December 6, 2009 (UTC)